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Andy916
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 712 Location: Cambridge
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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A review of the science behind Vaporfly may be of interest https://guttrunner.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/shoes-no-shoes.pdf
Personally I'd struggle with the 10mm drop (having transitioned to 0-3mm drop minimals) and would be wary of running tired on cushion with more give / less stability than most. That's before the cushion begins its high wear-rate...
_________________ 2016: Triathlon X Windemere, Monster Ely half, Evergreen 228 Chamonix
2015: Wasdale X, IM Wales, Rimini half, Ely half, Strathpuffer 24hr
Previous: IM Lanza, IM UK, Forestman, Outlaw, Mallorca half, XTERRA, IoM e2e, Dart 10k, 3PYR
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Posts: 2063
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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As I have previously run in Brooks Glycerin (and still am in training), the 10mm doesnt bother me. In fact, the Nike's feel flatter because of how squishy the foam is. I'm sure I've read somewhere that under loading, the real drop is more like 6-8mm.
But I can certainly see someone used to very low drop shoes would find them a bit strange.
As for wear, I'd initially read quite a lot about the high wear rate, but the fellrnr site gave me some reassurance with their review that it might not be quite as bad as people are saying (https://fellrnr.com/wiki/Nike_Vaporfly_4%25). From what that review says, it might look like the exposed parts of the foam are getting pretty trashed, but the actual main outer sole and spring in the shoes is still there after 300+ miles. That's not much less than what I'd normally expect.
[this also comments on the shoe drop, saying whilst he actually measured it at 12mm, the sensation of running in them would have put them at only 4-5mm. Instability is also mentioned which I largely agree with, although it's worth noting that most reviews say the second gen flyknit version are more stable than the original version per this review]
_________________ My blog: https://stenardstuff.wordpress.com/
Random stuff and race reports
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 16060 Location: Farthingstone
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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it is not so much the drop as the differential that is key...although the drop will certainly influence your posture and com
as for shoe wear, don't strike the ground so hard 9or push off as hard) if you wish your shoes to last...
i will read the report when i get 5, thanks...
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www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach
2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
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mattsurf
Joined: 28 Sep 2016 Posts: 852 Location: Zug, Switzerland
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Andy916 wrote: | A review of the science behind Vaporfly may be of interest https://guttrunner.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/shoes-no-shoes.pdf
Personally I'd struggle with the 10mm drop (having transitioned to 0-3mm drop minimals) and would be wary of running tired on cushion with more give / less stability than most. That's before the cushion begins its high wear-rate... |
I have been running with 4mm drop on my Hoka's and really didn't notice the increase to 10mm that much. It may be just the placebo effect and the fact that I ran after a rest day, but I was able to maintain my form for a 25 km run, previously I have struggled to maintain form at the end of a faster long run
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Andy916
Joined: 08 Oct 2011 Posts: 712 Location: Cambridge
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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explorerJC wrote: | it is not so much the drop as the differential that is key...although the drop will certainly influence your posture and com
as for shoe wear, don't strike the ground so hard 9or push off as hard) if you wish your shoes to last...
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By 'drop' I was meaning heel to forefoot differential; isn't that the normal usage? Nike state 31mm heel, 21mm forefoot, ie 10mm differential or drop for the Vaporfly.
Those stack heights are similar to those of the cushioned 'neutral' shoes I used to wear, and a world away from the 10mm max of the Inov8 and others that I now wear. My low shoes wear better than any of my previous cushioned ones, partly because I'm treading more lightly in them.
Stenard - whilst particularly squishy foam might reduce the perceived drop or differential, that instability is what I'd be most wary of for someone with poor or tired form.
_________________ 2016: Triathlon X Windemere, Monster Ely half, Evergreen 228 Chamonix
2015: Wasdale X, IM Wales, Rimini half, Ely half, Strathpuffer 24hr
Previous: IM Lanza, IM UK, Forestman, Outlaw, Mallorca half, XTERRA, IoM e2e, Dart 10k, 3PYR
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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 Posts: 18226 Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Definitely a thread worth starting then
_________________ 27 Years since it all began....
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Posts: 2063
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Andy916 wrote: | Stenard - whilst particularly squishy foam might reduce the perceived drop or differential, that instability is what I'd be most wary of for someone with poor or tired form. |
Very true. It's why I initially said I'm undecided in relation to Jorgan's opening question about using them in an IM marathon. My experience is they are pretty rubbish when running easily, but similar to what Matt has suggested, they're out of this world when running at speed. I certainly wouldn't want to use them if running 4hr pace for example.
For ref, my understanding of the common meaning of "drop" is aligned with yours. Hoka's for example have similar drop to other shoes, they just are extra stacked.
_________________ My blog: https://stenardstuff.wordpress.com/
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 16060 Location: Farthingstone
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Posts: 2063
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 16060 Location: Farthingstone
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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drop is the difference in forefoot to heel of the outsole - although exact point of measurement can be a moot point...as can including the insole...
i am not surprised that most runners neither know nor are indeed even vaguely interested in the distinction...as a generalisation, runners are a fairly apathetic bunch...certainly also the shoe manufacturers are not keen to inform you...
the differential is the ratio of the slope...
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2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Posts: 2063
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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I'm confused?!
What you've described is what andy916 was also meaning by drop, unless I'm still misunderstanding you?!
Does differential, based on what you defined it to be, make that much of a difference? I guess I've never really thought about it befofe, but if a shoe is a 10mm drop across all sizes (given manufacturers quote the drop of a model of a shoe, I'm assuming that must be the case, unless the drop is specified for a certain size of shoe?), then the ratio of that drop will vary quite a bit in a size 6 shoe versus a size 12, so I guess it could be very relevant to the intended performance of the shoe. That said, if you're size 6 (or 12) and determine a certain drop works for you, you just need to know the drop of new shoes going forwards, as your shoe size isn't really going to change.
_________________ My blog: https://stenardstuff.wordpress.com/
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 16060 Location: Farthingstone
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Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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stenard wrote: | I'm confused?!
What you've described is what andy916 was also meaning by drop, unless I'm still misunderstanding you?!
Does differential, based on what you defined it to be, make that much of a difference? I guess I've never really thought about it befofe, but if a shoe is a 10mm drop across all sizes (given manufacturers quote the drop of a model of a shoe, I'm assuming that must be the case, unless the drop is specified for a certain size of shoe?), then the ratio of that drop will vary quite a bit in a size 6 shoe versus a size 12, so I guess it could be very relevant to the intended performance of the shoe. That said, if you're size 6 (or 12) and determine a certain drop works for you, you just need to know the drop of new shoes going forwards, as your shoe size isn't really going to change. |
no, andy described the sum of the difference, i am talking about the ratio of the slope...
a size 6 shoe (depending on the exact point of measurement) will be about 23 or 24 cm long. The key points of reference for the "drop" being centre of the heel cup and centre of the forefoot (but this is debatable) which is about 16 or 17 cm, maybe a bit more. The differential for this shoe will be appox in excess of 6%.
a size 10 shoe will have a differential of approx 4%....thus, the slope of the smaller shoe will be greater.
Dependent on the slope, the ankle will either have to compensate by opening the angle (plantar flexion), or, more commonly, by realigning with the foot into a neutral position, resulting in pushing the knees forward and the hips back to counter balance.
_________________ www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching
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2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
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Buzz_
Joined: 19 May 2007 Posts: 453
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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:20 am Post subject: |
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When show companies specify a weight they use a specific shoe size (usually size 9 for men). It would make sense for drop to be specified in the same way.
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013 Posts: 2063
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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Buzz_ wrote: | When show companies specify a weight they use a specific shoe size (usually size 9 for men). It would make sense for drop to be specified in the same way. |
Agreed, when I was writing the above I kind of came to the same conclusion. It would be a bit nonsensical of manufacturers to not do that ... otherwise same model shoes would have fundamentally different properties when they are different sizes.
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005 Posts: 16060 Location: Farthingstone
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Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:24 am Post subject: |
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stenard wrote: | Buzz_ wrote: | When show companies specify a weight they use a specific shoe size (usually size 9 for men). It would make sense for drop to be specified in the same way. |
Agreed, when I was writing the above I kind of came to the same conclusion. It would be a bit nonsensical of manufacturers to not do that ... otherwise same model shoes would have fundamentally different properties when they are different sizes. |
They do have fundamentally different properties for different sizes....
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2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
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