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GrahamO
Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 10203
Location: United Arab Emirates or an airport
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 Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| mattsurf wrote: | | I think that unless parliament can agree, the only feasible option is to delay Brexit by 12 months, have a referendum, which asks these 2 questions, and renogitate with the EU based on the outcome |
A delay is a plain, simple attempt by Remainers to change the outcome by stealth. Delaying your andswer to the question will not alter the outcome. If the Eus ays No now, then it'lll be no in 12 months time so best to get on with it.
You're just wrapping up the standard Remainer arrogance of 'people didnt understand what they were voting for' in yet another attempt to change the outcome because you don't like it.
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mattsurf
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 852
Location: Zug, Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| GrahamO wrote: | | mattsurf wrote: | | I think that unless parliament can agree, the only feasible option is to delay Brexit by 12 months, have a referendum, which asks these 2 questions, and renogitate with the EU based on the outcome |
A delay is a plain, simple attempt by Remainers to change the outcome by stealth. Delaying your andswer to the question will not alter the outcome. If the Eus ays No now, then it'lll be no in 12 months time so best to get on with it.
You're just wrapping up the standard Remainer arrogance of 'people didnt understand what they were voting for' in yet another attempt to change the outcome because you don't like it. |
There is simply no majority in favour of a Hard Brexit, and it is only the Hard Line Brexiteers who are driving to exit on 29th March with no plan.
I do not believe that the EU will move on the negotiation over a hard border in Ireland as I don`t know if there is realistic alternative.
If the EU do not renegotiate, and the majority of the people in the UK are not in favour of a Hard Brexit, what do suggest should be done?
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 2063
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| explorerJC wrote: | | Jorgan wrote: | Again, I am reminded of another quote; this time by Nick Clegg on the Lib Dems in Coalition:
"we will bring a heart to a tory government and a brain to a labour-one"  |
and in so doing will shoot ourselves in the foot... |
Which was such an unfair outcome in my opinion.
I've never voted LibDem, but that coalition government was probably the most representative of my political views that has existed in my lifetime.
The nature of having to work together softened the more extreme elements of both manifestos to find a pretty decent middle ground, given the macro environment at the time.
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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18226
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:45 am Post subject: |
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^^ Yeah, I voted Lib Dem in 2015 & 17. Local MP was LD until 2015, then some young ambitious 'yes-man' got in from the Tories. I think it's such a shame we're now stuck with the two main parties at loggerheads.
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| stenard wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: | | Jorgan wrote: | Again, I am reminded of another quote; this time by Nick Clegg on the Lib Dems in Coalition:
"we will bring a heart to a tory government and a brain to a labour-one" |
and in so doing will shoot ourselves in the foot... |
Which was such an unfair outcome in my opinion.
I've never voted LibDem, but that coalition government was probably the most representative of my political views that has existed in my lifetime.
The nature of having to work together softened the more extreme elements of both manifestos to find a pretty decent middle ground, given the macro environment at the time. |
they failed miserably on electoral reform...which, iirc, was their main policy...
i voted for them back in the 90s...
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Jorgan wrote: | | ^^ Yeah, I voted Lib Dem in 2015 & 17. Local MP was LD until 2015, then some young ambitious 'yes-man' got in from the Tories. I think it's such a shame we're now stuck with the two main parties at loggerheads. |
if it wasn't for the SNP we would probably have had a labour gov in 2010...
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GrahamO
Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 10203
Location: United Arab Emirates or an airport
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| mattsurf wrote: | There is simply no majority in favour of a Hard Brexit, and it is only the Hard Line Brexiteers who are driving to exit on 29th March with no plan.
I do not believe that the EU will move on the negotiation over a hard border in Ireland as I dont know if there is a realistic alternative.
If the EU do not renegotiate, and the majority of the people in the UK are not in favour of a Hard Brexit, what do suggest should be done? |
I'd suggest you honour the vote and stop trying to change the outcome by claiming more people are now against it. Thats the utter arrogance of people like you. You will literally say or do anything to ignore voters desires while stalling and working with the EU to frustrate the will of the majority. If you di that in time of war you would be labelled a traitor.
There's been a vote and its time to implement it. After its happened, and the dust has settled, you can ask for another vote.
There is no hard border necessary - its the EU that wants one. The UK can simply do nothing and allow free movement and its the EU which will have to build the walls. Its probably not escaped your notice that we have two currencies, two taxation systems already across Ireland and it works just fine.
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mattsurf
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 852
Location: Zug, Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| GrahamO wrote: | | mattsurf wrote: | There is simply no majority in favour of a Hard Brexit, and it is only the Hard Line Brexiteers who are driving to exit on 29th March with no plan.
I do not believe that the EU will move on the negotiation over a hard border in Ireland as I dont know if there is a realistic alternative.
If the EU do not renegotiate, and the majority of the people in the UK are not in favour of a Hard Brexit, what do suggest should be done? |
I'd suggest you honour the vote and stop trying to change the outcome by claiming more people are now against it. Thats the utter arrogance of people like you. You will literally say or do anything to ignore voters desires while stalling and working with the EU to frustrate the will of the majority. If you di that in time of war you would be labelled a traitor.
There's been a vote and its time to implement it. After its happened, and the dust has settled, you can ask for another vote.
There is no hard border necessary - its the EU that wants one. The UK can simply do nothing and allow free movement and its the EU which will have to build the walls. Its probably not escaped your notice that we have two currencies, two taxation systems already across Ireland and it works just fine. |
I fully accept that there was a vote to leave, and I do not believe that decision should be reversed, however, there was no vote for a Hard unmanaged Brexit. It is simply a fact that there is no majority support for a Hard Brexit.
Hard line remainers and Brexiteers are equally divisive. We need a managed exit from the EU, unfortunately there seems to be very few people in parliament prepared to compromise on their entrenched positions
Hard Line Brexiteers voted for the Brady amendment yesterday because even though they know that it has zero chance to go through the EU, it will kick the can further down the road towards 29 March
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 16060
Location: Farthingstone
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mattsurf wrote: | | GrahamO wrote: | | mattsurf wrote: | There is simply no majority in favour of a Hard Brexit, and it is only the Hard Line Brexiteers who are driving to exit on 29th March with no plan.
I do not believe that the EU will move on the negotiation over a hard border in Ireland as I dont know if there is a realistic alternative.
If the EU do not renegotiate, and the majority of the people in the UK are not in favour of a Hard Brexit, what do suggest should be done? |
I'd suggest you honour the vote and stop trying to change the outcome by claiming more people are now against it. Thats the utter arrogance of people like you. You will literally say or do anything to ignore voters desires while stalling and working with the EU to frustrate the will of the majority. If you di that in time of war you would be labelled a traitor.
There's been a vote and its time to implement it. After its happened, and the dust has settled, you can ask for another vote.
There is no hard border necessary - its the EU that wants one. The UK can simply do nothing and allow free movement and its the EU which will have to build the walls. Its probably not escaped your notice that we have two currencies, two taxation systems already across Ireland and it works just fine. |
I fully accept that there was a vote to leave, and I do not believe that decision should be reversed, however, there was no vote for a Hard unmanaged Brexit. It is simply a fact that there is no majority support for a Hard Brexit.
Hard line remainers and Brexiteers are equally divisive. We need a managed exit from the EU, unfortunately there seems to be very few people in parliament prepared to compromise on their entrenched positions
Hard Line Brexiteers voted for the Brady amendment yesterday because even though they know that it has zero chance to go through the EU, it will kick the can further down the road towards 29 March |
i think that the less willing the EU are to be flexible, perhaps the more likely the average Joe is going to realise the better off the UK will be in the long term...
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Wheezy
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
Posts: 1889
Location: Sub 3 (elect)
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Alternatively, it’s the EU sticking up for the concerns of one of their members who are not leaving? It’s almost like they’re a union of countries or something....
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Wheezy wrote: | | Alternatively, it’s the EU sticking up for the concerns of one of their members who are not leaving? It’s almost like they’re a union of countries or something.... |
possibly, or of course just looking out for themselves...
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explorerJC
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mattsurf
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 852
Location: Zug, Switzerland
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| It's an utter disgrace, whatever side of Brexit you stand on, it has been taken over by extreme opinions, no matter what the damage is to democracy or the damage to our economy. Parliament is having the debate right now that we should have had 2 years ago.
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