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tuckandgo
Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 461
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 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:19 pm Post subject: Sinking Legs |
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Following on from the PB thread.
Like many AOS triathletes I have fairly sinky legs. I know my head position is good as I have asked various experienced swimmers to look at it.
So what else can cause it (and ideally be fixed  )?
Is there a 'lock' that good swimmers do with their core/back/whatever that isn't really spoken about (similar to the fact that you should actively lock your core on the bike but that is hardly ever mentioned when people talk about trying to ride faster/more power/etc.)
Does it feel like you are actively arching your back?
Is one form of kicking (2 beat, 4 beat I don't know I am just guessing) better. Is it a symptom of not kicking from the hip?
Any informed advice gratefully received.
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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18226
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Do you have legs like Chris Hoy?
You see lots of guys with big legs in ironman; they drag them around the swim, hammer the bike at 60rpm, then survive the run 
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hammerer
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 16628
Location: Right Next Door To Hell
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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hard to pin it down as it could be a number of things. try just floating. we get the kids to do it. think about how to get those legs up. If you cant do it flaoting then swimming wont help as you are not swimming for propulsion but to stop yourself from drowning! Something I learnt from Thorpe (not directly  )is he would always get in the water and float until he felt good and then slowly start pulling himself through the water buildign speed through the warm up.
Bands can help with this feel also.
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| tuckandgo wrote: | | Is there a 'lock' that good swimmers do with their core/back/whatever that isn't really spoken about |
| hammerer wrote: | | Bands can help with this feel also. |
After the other thread, I just got back from adding in a little bonus session at the pool incorporating some band work. It was illuminating having not used it since the spring.
After a length or so it was really noticeable that my legs were sinking big time, and causing a lot of drag. I focused on really engaging my core and the legs lifted. Furthermore, it became really evident what a difference an exaggerated pointing of the toes could result in, in terms of drag reduction.
I did three 100's with the band/pb.
The first one was 1:40, which was the rep I identified the lack of core engagement.
The second one I focused on the core and it dropped to 1:36.
The final one I continued to really engage and it dropped further to 1:33.
I was doing steady 200s between my technique 100's (I was also working in some finger paddle 100s to focus on my catch). The 200 before recognising the lack of core engagement was a 3:08. The one following was 3:00.
That's a dramatic difference in all settings. Even the resulting finger paddle sets were noticeably quicker as I continued to focus on core engagement. I'm definitely going to persist with this as an area of focus in my swimming for the next week or two. By the end my core was pretty achy, so that also incentivises some general core work, which I knew I should be doing anyway but constantly neglect.
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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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I pure loves the Finger Paddles init.
Did 5*100 with PB/Band & Finger paddles at the end today - focussing on catch and turnover. Almost as fast as my 100s with finger paddles and buoyancy shorts (1:26ish)  I haven't swum with buoyancy shorts all season though, they're too addictive.
Stenard - you find your legs sink with a PB?
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tuckandgo
Joined: 03 Sep 2012
Posts: 461
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks guys, interesting stuff.
I will have a tinker later in the pool. I think I need to consciously engage my core because if I don't it just noodles as it's not second nature.
I may also brave the band!
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Jorgan wrote: | | Stenard - you find your legs sink with a PB? |
Yep 
With respect to hammerers comments about floating in a pool ... that is not something I can do at all. Never have. I just rotate around to c45 degrees. I can hardly even do it in salt water.
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Tri'ing Swimmer
Joined: 15 Nov 2016
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Agree with Hammerers floating comments, but don’t worry I can’t float at all either, and no amount of practice will change the fact I have heavy legs (although you should try improve). I can pull with band only though, so guess developed a dynamic balance by engaging core, and increasing stroke rate slightly I think?
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 16060
Location: Farthingstone
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Chrace
Joined: 28 Apr 2010
Posts: 2910
Location: Eating a Yorkie
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| stenard wrote: | | Jorgan wrote: | | Stenard - you find your legs sink with a PB? |
Yep
With respect to hammerers comments about floating in a pool ... that is not something I can do at all. Never have. I just rotate around to c45 degrees. I can hardly even do it in salt water. |
Arms full out front, tighten the butt cheeks (squeeze a lemon) and stretch out long. Really, really engage the core. Initially you'll sink but then the body will slowly recover and level out, possibly even before you run out of breath. Subsequent goes and you'll find the level position quicker.
Then as you get used to it start moving the arms out wide and see how far back you can get them before you sink again. Just to play around, not sure there's any real use of that, but it'll give you an idea of where your body needs to be.
Remember to warn the lifeguard you are playing around face down and it's ok.
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Chrace wrote: | | stenard wrote: | | Jorgan wrote: | | Stenard - you find your legs sink with a PB? |
Yep
With respect to hammerers comments about floating in a pool ... that is not something I can do at all. Never have. I just rotate around to c45 degrees. I can hardly even do it in salt water. |
Arms full out front, tighten the butt cheeks (squeeze a lemon) and stretch out long. Really, really engage the core. Initially you'll sink but then the body will slowly recover and level out, possibly even before you run out of breath. Subsequent goes and you'll find the level position quicker.
Then as you get used to it start moving the arms out wide and see how far back you can get them before you sink again. Just to play around, not sure there's any real use of that, but it'll give you an idea of where your body needs to be.
Remember to warn the lifeguard you are playing around face down and it's ok. |
or not as the case may be 
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PhilleusPhogg
Joined: 11 May 2015
Posts: 311
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| Chrace wrote: | | stenard wrote: | | Jorgan wrote: | | Stenard - you find your legs sink with a PB? |
Yep
With respect to hammerers comments about floating in a pool ... that is not something I can do at all. Never have. I just rotate around to c45 degrees. I can hardly even do it in salt water. |
Arms full out front, tighten the butt cheeks (squeeze a lemon) and stretch out long. Really, really engage the core. Initially you'll sink but then the body will slowly recover and level out, possibly even before you run out of breath. Subsequent goes and you'll find the level position quicker.
Then as you get used to it start moving the arms out wide and see how far back you can get them before you sink again. Just to play around, not sure there's any real use of that, but it'll give you an idea of where your body needs to be.
Remember to warn the lifeguard you are playing around face down and it's ok. |
Although I take that there is a technique/core strength/neural thing that can help, I'm fairly sure that's not enough for everyone.
Isn't it more to do with the fact that if your center of buoyancy (which is dictated by body volume) and center of gravity (dictated by body mass/composition) are far apart (i.e. COB more towards upper body, COM towards lower body) then the rotational force bringing the legs down cannot be overcome by any realistic amount of core strength?
Some people float easily (COB and COM are very close), some can't.
That's not to say this technique isn't really useful - I found it very insightful when I tried this week to engage core, push chest down and try to float, and then figure out the minimum amount of kick required to bring the legs up - which actually is hardly any! Then try and bring that into the swim as hammerer suggests
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Doca
Joined: 27 Feb 2014
Posts: 256
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Whilst on holiday a few weeks ago I noticed that if I tensed my core muscles I could float my legs to the surface (no kicking just floating face down superman like) in the sea. I moved to the pool & no matter how hard I tried I couldn't float my legs in the pool.
Over the 10 days I had a few minutes in the sea practicing and then would move to the pool & try there. By the end of the 10 days I could float my legs in the pool by applying tension in the core.
It's early days but I'm hoping this learning will improve my swimming. I heard of keeping some tension in the core from some Total Immersion material.
I think what is actually happening is the diaphragm is being pushed lower moving the center of buoyancy as I could only make it work with mostly full lungs.
Maybe this is a bit random but it felt like a bit of a eureka moment to me, possibly something to try if you get the opportunity.
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mattsurf
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 852
Location: Zug, Switzerland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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I am having a second go at Total Immersion, as that is how they coach at the local tri club. I didn't get on too well with it last year, but this year they have a new coach and the program starts from scratch.
For the past 3 weeks we have been engaging the core, hours of endless drills and no proper swimming.
At first I really struggled to "get my balance", now I can get my balance in a couple of seconds, hopefully it will become second nature
Still not convinced about TI, however, it is helping learning to engage core
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