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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18226
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
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 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I use the lap function on my swims; I only stop the watch when that set/session is complete. Thus, I only log 'moving' time when I swim.
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PCP
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 2005
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| stenard wrote: | Are you sure about this? That's not how bike power works. For exactly the reason that has been mentioned about autopause on the bike, you only want to include time you're actually moving. Coasting should be included but long stops at lights should not. TSS is a combination of intensity (to a power, squared on the bike) and duration. Your rest intervals are not training stress. They are rest. If you include the rest then you alter IF, and the extra time but altered IF doesn't have the same effect.
Training Peaks themselves are also clear you should not include rest which is why their system does what it does:
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/calculating-swimming-tss-score/ |
This is what I was told by a former coach. Maybe it is wrong then. That calculation on the link is a nightmare though if you need to do it for every session. Maybe it is why people plan run & bike TSS for the week and class swimming as a bonus?
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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18226
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| PCP wrote: | | stenard wrote: | Are you sure about this? That's not how bike power works. For exactly the reason that has been mentioned about autopause on the bike, you only want to include time you're actually moving. Coasting should be included but long stops at lights should not. TSS is a combination of intensity (to a power, squared on the bike) and duration. Your rest intervals are not training stress. They are rest. If you include the rest then you alter IF, and the extra time but altered IF doesn't have the same effect.
Training Peaks themselves are also clear you should not include rest which is why their system does what it does:
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/calculating-swimming-tss-score/ |
This is what I was told by a former coach. Maybe it is wrong then. That calculation on the link is a nightmare though if you need to do it for every session. Maybe it is why people plan run & bike TSS for the week and class swimming as a bonus? |
Swimming has always been difficult to track as far as physiological cost (generally no HR). Although I see TP calculates TSS for swimming as long as you put in a threshold pace for 100m. Again as mentioned earlier though, it doesn't account for rest intervals, so sees it as a straight threshold swim which isn't quite the whole picture.
Pretty sure things were more straightforward before all the training software apps!
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tin pot
Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2592
Location: Bromley
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| Jorgan wrote: | | PCP wrote: | | stenard wrote: | Are you sure about this? That's not how bike power works. For exactly the reason that has been mentioned about autopause on the bike, you only want to include time you're actually moving. Coasting should be included but long stops at lights should not. TSS is a combination of intensity (to a power, squared on the bike) and duration. Your rest intervals are not training stress. They are rest. If you include the rest then you alter IF, and the extra time but altered IF doesn't have the same effect.
Training Peaks themselves are also clear you should not include rest which is why their system does what it does:
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/calculating-swimming-tss-score/ |
This is what I was told by a former coach. Maybe it is wrong then. That calculation on the link is a nightmare though if you need to do it for every session. Maybe it is why people plan run & bike TSS for the week and class swimming as a bonus? |
Swimming has always been difficult to track as far as physiological cost (generally no HR). Although I see TP calculates TSS for swimming as long as you put in a threshold pace for 100m. Again as mentioned earlier though, it doesn't account for rest intervals, so sees it as a straight threshold swim which isn't quite the whole picture.
Pretty sure things were more straightforward before all the training software apps! |
Agreed, I did the maths for several weeks and because it’s based on an average of the whole session it always works out *roughly* the same regardless of the sets you do. I just note the same value each session up it a bit if it was a TT or CSS testing session, but distance is as valuable.
I suspect it wouldn’t be too hard to model the TSS similar as TrainerRoad does on the sets you are doing; 6x 3min VO2 max being a touch harder than twenty minutes below CSS.
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Iron ‘17 16h11, '16 14h30
Half Iron ‘18 DNF, '17 7h39, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10K ‘18 50:31 '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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PCP
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 2005
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Jorgan wrote: | | PCP wrote: | | stenard wrote: | Are you sure about this? That's not how bike power works. For exactly the reason that has been mentioned about autopause on the bike, you only want to include time you're actually moving. Coasting should be included but long stops at lights should not. TSS is a combination of intensity (to a power, squared on the bike) and duration. Your rest intervals are not training stress. They are rest. If you include the rest then you alter IF, and the extra time but altered IF doesn't have the same effect.
Training Peaks themselves are also clear you should not include rest which is why their system does what it does:
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/calculating-swimming-tss-score/ |
This is what I was told by a former coach. Maybe it is wrong then. That calculation on the link is a nightmare though if you need to do it for every session. Maybe it is why people plan run & bike TSS for the week and class swimming as a bonus? |
Swimming has always been difficult to track as far as physiological cost (generally no HR). Although I see TP calculates TSS for swimming as long as you put in a threshold pace for 100m. Again as mentioned earlier though, it doesn't account for rest intervals, so sees it as a straight threshold swim which isn't quite the whole picture.
Pretty sure things were more straightforward before all the training software apps! |
I just created 2 swims. Bearing in mind I have Threshold set at 1:45/100m
Swim 1 - 2000m, 33 mins 20 sec (1:45/100) = 58 TSS
Swim 2 - 2000m, 40 mins (1:45/100, 15 sec RBI) = 45 TSS
I just also created 2 runs like a track session based on my HR.
Run 1 - 3 miles, 15 mins (5 min mile, no rest), Ave HR 195, max 197 = TSS 35
Run 2 - 4 miles, 30 mins (5 min miles but with recovery jogs), Ave HR 160, max 197 = TSS 35
Both runs give the same.
Not sure what that tells you but the rest/no rest definitely skews the swim. I just can't see how a 2km swim can be 58 TSS. A 3k swim at 1:40's with no rest is 88 TSS. That's like a 90 min steady run or 2hr bike. If nothing else it will give a false sense of fitness when looking at your CTL.
That is maybe why Traiathlon 2.0 book says you should monitor your Bike CTL & Run CTL separately and have targets for both.
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Yes, there are limitations. But I think it's a fair approximation. If I swam 1k straight in 15mins, or did 10*100 off 1.30 coming in at 1.20, the latter would be a way tougher session (I couldn't actually do it, I'm just using simple numbers!).
Your way, both would have the same TSS. My understanding of the training peaks method is that the average pace of 1.20, being significantly under CSS pace, would mean a higher TSS value for the 13.20 of actual swim time because of the power contribution of IF.
That is the result I would expect. Although maybe I'm wrong about what training peaks does. Ultimately, I just use it as a guide for how my swim fitbess/fatigue is roughly developing
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PCP
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 2005
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:44 am Post subject: |
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I see what you mean, I was just going off what I was told to do. Maybe it is better if we all stop swimming 
I'd rather underestimate than overestimate though and I'm not using that formula for every swim as I don't have time.
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Pedro Peru
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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Location: Leeds
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| IIRC Andrew Coggan isn't especially happy about rTSS and sTSS as he doesn't think they'redirectly comparable to TSS.
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| PCP wrote: | I see what you mean, I was just going off what I was told to do. Maybe it is better if we all stop swimming
I'd rather underestimate than overestimate though and I'm not using that formula for every swim as I don't have time. |
Training Peaks just does it for you, no?
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FatPom
Joined: 26 Dec 2005
Posts: 5411
Location: My happy place
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Pedro Peru wrote: | | IIRC Andrew Coggan isn't especially happy. |
You could have just stopped there.
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Pedro Peru
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
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Location: Leeds
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| FatPom wrote: | | Pedro Peru wrote: | | IIRC Andrew Coggan isn't especially happy. |
You could have just stopped there. |
He does crack me up TBH
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tin pot
Joined: 08 Jul 2013
Posts: 2592
Location: Bromley
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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It would be nice to have commons scoring across sports, but is it necessary?
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Iron ‘17 16h11, '16 14h30
Half Iron ‘18 DNF, '17 7h39, 6h28 '16 5h53
Olympic '16 3h18 '15 3h33, '13 3h36
Sprint '16 1h17, '14 1h40, '13 2h01
Half Mara '16 2h04, '14 2h07
10K ‘18 50:31 '16 54:01 '13 54:46
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Clive
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 467
Location: Heptonstall 870 ft up
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:00 am Post subject: |
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My off-season aim is to nurse the 54 year old temple thru the tepid weather era in between stupid MBA dissertation (my silly choice!) and hopefully come out next year in ok shape to complete (note didn't say compete!) Xtreme, X and 1/2 X.
"Opportunities" at the moment include Golfers Elbow (adopted dog with strength and quads of Chris Hoy), patellar tendinopathy (seemed to start one weekend when I drove loads and also ran), and something like sessamoiditus (always had weakness there).
So managing training v injury is probably my key aim.
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PCP
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
Posts: 2005
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| stenard wrote: |
Training Peaks just does it for you, no? |
You are right. I was just going off what someone told me and after reading the article properly and a few other things, basically I believed the opposite of what is true.
Better for the CTL, I suppose but now I 'feel' like I'm cheating because the number is higher but I'm sure I'll get over it!
I never really thought about the effort being more due to the density of water, therefore 'cubing' the equation. I'd assumed that because swimming is less stressful on the body it is also less effort. Obviously not true, that's why I want to eat the house out when I get home!
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Poet. wrote: |
Works both ways, though.
Miss that century ride, average goes down massively.
Add in a century ride, with a 30km run, average jumps up massively.
Over the past 23 weeks, I've been slowly building to 8hrs per week.
Was on 7:30 last week, did 13hrs last week and it rocketed up to 7:45. |
I was just thinking about this, as I've been amazed at how little a couple of bigger sessions impact longer term CTL. Consistency really is key. I'm currently way down on my CTL levels from pre-IM, but when you actually look at weekly training hours, it's really not surprising. The Strava training log is pretty good for this, as it summarises every calendar week. I don't log cross-training on strava, so it's "clean" SBR totals.
Jan to March I averaged 9.75hrs (127 over 13 weeks). That was pretty consistent with a c16hr week in there on a DIY training camp, and no week lower than 5hrs, which was a target HM race week.
Over the next 6 weeks to mid-May (up to and including Mallorca 70.3) I averaged 11hrs (67hrs total).
Then it got a bit messy with some non-target races, a bit of illness, etc. 4 weeks of c9.25hrs/wk, but that's skewed by two days of the Tour of Wessex which gives nearly 10hrs of that just on two days.
From then it got serious to IM. Up to and including Copenhagen was a further 10 weeks. During that time I averaged nearly 14hrs per week (138hrs total). Other than taper (7hrs in the penultimate week), no week lower than 9.5hrs.
My averages before and after that race fully explain why my CTL has dropped from a peak of 126 to currently being sat at 78. Being fair, it was only 104 the day before race day Copenhagen.
3 weeks after the race of only 11hrs total.
Then a decent 4 week block of 10hrs/wk.
Then a drop up to and including Ibiza ETU of 6.5/wk for 3 weeks.
Looking at that, it's no wonder the numbers have fallen. 10wks consistently of 14hrs/week. 10 weeks since the IM of half that number.
But outside of raw numbers, consistency is definitely key. In the phases where I have trained regularly, over a prolonged period, I've felt strong and absorbed the training and continued to deliver sessions. When I've tried to "kick start" things, it's not really been successful.
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