| View previous topic :: View next topic
|
| Author |
Message |
SGreg
Joined: 30 Jun 2010
Posts: 1112
Location: High Peak
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 9:57 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| mattsurf wrote: |
If people want full control of immigration and complete split from ECJ then the offer is either Hard Brexit, TM deal or Canada deal
If people want control of majority of immigration and limited influence of the ECJ so that we can remain in the CU, then we can have a softer Brexit like Switzerland or Norway
I think that unless parliament can agree, the only feasible option is to delay Brexit by 12 months, have a referendum, which asks these 2 questions, and renogitate with the EU based on the outcome |
Seriously... You want to put that into a question my 89-year-old mother-in-law can understand?
Remember she can't work a phone, tv remote or microwave. She doesn't really understand money, and thinks we sould all eat more salt to stay healthy...
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18226
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| GrahamO wrote: |
The optimist would say that I wanted the UK to be stronger and more successful for future generations to have a better quality of life, to stop the UK filling up with Europes unemployment problem and to stop funding Eastern European projects, keeping the French farmers funded by the CAP and for European trawlers to live off UK waters, the get rid of the Eurocrats unjustified pensions, and to no longer be shacked to a low growth insular closed market like Europe. |
Can't really argue with that. But you'd still rather live in the UAE and what that has to offer 
_________________
27 Years since it all began....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 16060
Location: Farthingstone
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| SGreg wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: |
What a great opportunity for reform lost....simply because of their rigid ideology |
But if they were willing to reform ...why would YOU want to leave?
Catch 22? |
not sure that's quite the meaning of catch 22, but i get your drift...
how much harder would it be to engineer brexit if the EU had started to take on board the concerns of the brits, the french, the greeks, the irish, i wonder?
but that would probably mean having to at least slow the gravy train...
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching
www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach
2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 16060
Location: Farthingstone
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mattsurf wrote: |
The government needs to understand what the people actually want.
If people want full control of immigration and complete split from ECJ then the offer is either Hard Brexit, TM deal or Canada deal
If people want control of majority of immigration and limited influence of the ECJ so that we can remain in the CU, then we can have a softer Brexit like Switzerland or Norway
I think that unless parliament can agree, the only feasible option is to delay Brexit by 12 months, have a referendum, which asks these 2 questions, and renogitate with the EU based on the outcome |
It's a reasonable question to ask....but what makes you think these avenues haven't already been explored by the EU...and why wouldn't the remainders want a third question on any future referendum?
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching
www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach
2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18226
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:39 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't really mind us being outside the EU, as long as it doesn't come with far-reaching or long-term detrimental affects to the country and the economy.
How on-Earth Parliament can be sorted out though....
_________________
27 Years since it all began....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mattsurf
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 852
Location: Zug, Switzerland
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| explorerJC wrote: | | mattsurf wrote: |
The government needs to understand what the people actually want.
If people want full control of immigration and complete split from ECJ then the offer is either Hard Brexit, TM deal or Canada deal
If people want control of majority of immigration and limited influence of the ECJ so that we can remain in the CU, then we can have a softer Brexit like Switzerland or Norway
I think that unless parliament can agree, the only feasible option is to delay Brexit by 12 months, have a referendum, which asks these 2 questions, and renogitate with the EU based on the outcome |
It's a reasonable question to ask....but what makes you think these avenues haven't already been explored by the EU...and why wouldn't the remainders want a third question on any future referendum? |
Because I feel that there has already been a referendum to determine whether we should remain or leave the EU, it would be highly destructive to ask the same question again. I think that a referendum should only ask 2 questions, and in this case the questions should concern the type of relationship that we should have.
I agree that the questions I posed a pretty complex to understand, however, think that people brighter than me could make the questions clear
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mattsurf
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Posts: 852
Location: Zug, Switzerland
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| explorerJC wrote: | | SGreg wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: |
What a great opportunity for reform lost....simply because of their rigid ideology |
But if they were willing to reform ...why would YOU want to leave?
Catch 22? |
not sure that's quite the meaning of catch 22, but i get your drift...
how much harder would it be to engineer brexit if the EU had started to take on board the concerns of the brits, the french, the greeks, the irish, i wonder?
but that would probably mean having to at least slow the gravy train... |
But Europe cannot change its fundamental structure due to the Euro and Economic union. Freedom of movement and the ECJ are fundamental requirements. The fact that all 27 nations of the EU are united in the negotiations with the UK should tell us something.
Where the EU can and must reform is the cost of the European parliament, the ridiculous move from Brussels to Strasbourg every year, corrupt management of expenses, and even the structure and governance of the EU parliament
The problem for the Greeks and Italians and even to some extent the French is that they signed up to join the Euro. The issue that this gives is that the value of the currency does not fluctuate based on economic performance. In the case of Italy and Greece, where illegal tax evasion is a national past time and people used to retire very early with generous pensions this is a big issue. In return for preventing Greece and Italy from Bankruptcy the government are having to curb spending significantly.
In Ireland the EU had to rescue the country due to reckless spending by its banks, a collapse of Irish banks may have triggered a far wider banking meltdown. Personally I feel that the whole banking industry should have paid for this rather than the people of Ireland
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 16060
Location: Farthingstone
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mattsurf wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: | | mattsurf wrote: |
The government needs to understand what the people actually want.
If people want full control of immigration and complete split from ECJ then the offer is either Hard Brexit, TM deal or Canada deal
If people want control of majority of immigration and limited influence of the ECJ so that we can remain in the CU, then we can have a softer Brexit like Switzerland or Norway
I think that unless parliament can agree, the only feasible option is to delay Brexit by 12 months, have a referendum, which asks these 2 questions, and renogitate with the EU based on the outcome |
It's a reasonable question to ask....but what makes you think these avenues haven't already been explored by the EU...and why wouldn't the remainders want a third question on any future referendum? |
Because I feel that there has already been a referendum to determine whether we should remain or leave the EU, it would be highly destructive to ask the same question again. |
You think that - and i would agree - but you are a rational person judging by your posts who appears to consider options and potential outcomes and risks...not something i would say about most people who have an opinion on these matters...
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching
www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach
2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 16060
Location: Farthingstone
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mattsurf wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: | | SGreg wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: |
What a great opportunity for reform lost....simply because of their rigid ideology |
But if they were willing to reform ...why would YOU want to leave?
Catch 22? |
not sure that's quite the meaning of catch 22, but i get your drift...
how much harder would it be to engineer brexit if the EU had started to take on board the concerns of the brits, the french, the greeks, the irish, i wonder?
but that would probably mean having to at least slow the gravy train... |
Where the EU can and must reform is the cost of the European parliament, the ridiculous move from Brussels to Strasbourg every year, corrupt management of expenses, and even the structure and governance of the EU parliament
|
Exactly (except it's monthly) ...and if they had agreed to change here, then further progress is possible...
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching
www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach
2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18226
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
| explorerJC wrote: | | You think that - and i would agree - but you are a rational person judging by your posts who appears to consider options and potential outcomes and risks...not something i would say about most people who have an opinion on these matters... |
 reminds me of a cartoon my 4 yo was watching this morning on Kids Youtube. The basic message (using some sort of shaolin type monks 'showing off' their skills to bring a hungry Lion back to life) was that "wise men think before they act".
_________________
27 Years since it all began....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
doug
Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 15160
Location: Harrow (Doonhamer in exile)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 16060
Location: Farthingstone
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 18226
Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Again, I am reminded of another quote; this time by Nick Clegg on the Lib Dems in Coalition:
"we will bring a heart to a tory government and a brain to a labour-one" 
_________________
27 Years since it all began....
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 16060
Location: Farthingstone
|
| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 11:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Jorgan wrote: | Again, I am reminded of another quote; this time by Nick Clegg on the Lib Dems in Coalition:
"we will bring a heart to a tory government and a brain to a labour-one" |
and in so doing will shoot ourselves in the foot...
_________________
www.appliedtri.co.uk Tri and Du coaching
www.naturalrunningform.co.uk Natural Running Form Coach
2018 Training Camps http://www.appliedtri.co.uk/training-camps/
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GrahamO
Joined: 10 Apr 2005
Posts: 10203
Location: United Arab Emirates or an airport
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
| mattsurf wrote: | | But Europe cannot change its fundamental structure due to the Euro and Economic union. Freedom of movement and the ECJ are fundamental requirements. |
Completely untrue.
They are entirely a choice.
There is zero reason, why you cannot have freedom of movement, but not freedom to live and work and a borderless tariff area, without what the EU ask for.
Its a smokescreen by the Eurocrats to avoid the issue.
_________________
Arguing with engineers is like wrestling in mud with a pig - after a while you realise they like it
newMan : I don't know why you think you can address me like that! Don't ever reply directly to any of my posts again please.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Albums
Memberlist
Bloglist
Wiki
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
