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PCP
Joined: 13 Oct 2012
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Location: Manchester
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 Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Jorgan wrote: | | In order to make a High-Elbow catch & EVF easier, you need to swim with 'wide tracks' i.e. hand entry shoulder width apart. |
Last Xmas I had a 121 session with a GB swimming coach and she said in no uncertain terms that it is bull$hit and your hand should enter on the centre line at the furthest point possible without over-reaching.
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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| PCP wrote: | | Jorgan wrote: | | In order to make a High-Elbow catch & EVF easier, you need to swim with 'wide tracks' i.e. hand entry shoulder width apart. |
Last Xmas I had a 121 session with a GB swimming coach and she said in no uncertain terms that it is bull$hit and your hand should enter on the centre line at the furthest point possible without over-reaching. |
This is much like training zones, Periodisation, HR, Power etc there is no single consensus.
A lot of Olympic level swimmers don't do what she's saying, if you watch videos of a lot of the top Olympic Freestylers, they aren't entering on the centre line; certainly Phelps' dominant arm (right) enters at shoulder width. What elite level pool swimmers do, is a bit different from AGers in wetsuits swimming an OW Ironman too. In fact, if you watch the Olympic OW 5K race, I'm pretty sure they don't all swim like Popov. Andy Potts doesn't swim like that either, for example.
What a lot of crap AG swimmers do, is think they're entering at the centre-line, but in fact they're over-reaching, and that's perpetuated under the water on the pull. If they tried to enter at shoulder width, that would probably help to correct this somewhat.
I'm pretty sure TI & Swim Smooth don't see eye-to-eye either!
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Wheezy
Joined: 10 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| gruffT wrote: | OK, I'll bite.
Regular 85% effort free = 1'55" /100
Similar effort Pull = 1'48" / 100
And I have really weak arms!
I have a tendancy to cross over but actively concentrate on not doing that, that and high elbow catch.
Should I just not kick and not worry about it?! |
If this is happening and the pull buoy is having such a dramatic effect on speed, would that not then be a case of the hips sinking and therefore the head position being wrong? Appreciate that without actually observing you swimming this is guesswork, but I'd have thought it would be something to do with it? 
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hammerer
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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Location: Right Next Door To Hell
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| PCP wrote: | | Jorgan wrote: | | In order to make a High-Elbow catch & EVF easier, you need to swim with 'wide tracks' i.e. hand entry shoulder width apart. |
Last Xmas I had a 121 session with a GB swimming coach and she said in no uncertain terms that it is bull$hit and your hand should enter on the centre line at the furthest point possible without over-reaching. |
OK so essentailly thast correct on the face of it BUT.
we coach "enter between head and shoulder width". Generally we coach shoulder width as you believe you are wider than you really are. I often say 10 to 2 but not because thats what I want, but it will feel like that when you do it and in practice will be nowhere near that wide.
If you have good rotation and get it right you will be on the centre line as you extend though. trouble is by saying on your centre line most will cross. theres a big difference in what you coach and how to coach it especially all based on who you are communicating to.
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hammerer
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Wheezy wrote: | | gruffT wrote: | OK, I'll bite.
Regular 85% effort free = 1'55" /100
Similar effort Pull = 1'48" / 100
And I have really weak arms!
I have a tendancy to cross over but actively concentrate on not doing that, that and high elbow catch.
Should I just not kick and not worry about it?! |
If this is happening and the pull buoy is having such a dramatic effect on speed, would that not then be a case of the hips sinking and therefore the head position being wrong? Appreciate that without actually observing you swimming this is guesswork, but I'd have thought it would be something to do with it? |
yes its not because you dont need to kick, its becuase the PB is holding your legs up in a betetr body position. One thing i get adutls to do is bands and say swim now....thats what will happen if you dont kick!
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| hammerer wrote: | | theres a big difference in what you coach and how to coach it especially all based on who you are communicating to. |
Very true, and very evident in the drills at our coached swim sessions.
It's the same in a lot of sports. Back in my American Football days, footwork drills would be hugely over exaggerated, with pointed toes and pauses at certain points when changing direction. You are just building up a semblance of muscle memory so that when someone does something at full speed, they incorporate a fraction what the drill taught, and they are the better for it.
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gruffT
Joined: 23 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| hammerer wrote: | | Wheezy wrote: | | gruffT wrote: | OK, I'll bite.
Regular 85% effort free = 1'55" /100
Similar effort Pull = 1'48" / 100
And I have really weak arms!
I have a tendancy to cross over but actively concentrate on not doing that, that and high elbow catch.
Should I just not kick and not worry about it?! |
If this is happening and the pull buoy is having such a dramatic effect on speed, would that not then be a case of the hips sinking and therefore the head position being wrong? Appreciate that without actually observing you swimming this is guesswork, but I'd have thought it would be something to do with it? |
yes its not because you dont need to kick, its becuase the PB is holding your legs up in a betetr body position. One thing i get adutls to do is bands and say swim now....thats what will happen if you dont kick! |
Thanks for the replies all.
I was a high school swimmer at county level but that was many moons ago when the s-pull was all the rage. These days I try and swim 10&2 but likely that's still a bit in the middle. I also suspect my pull wiggles a little under the body, especially when tired. I do try to only ever have 1 goggle out during breathing but a club mate mentioned I drop my arm during the breath, causing a bit of scissor.
Do we think the band is the answer?
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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| hammerer wrote: | | trouble is by saying on your centre line most will cross. theres a big difference in what you coach and how to coach it especially all based on who you are communicating to. |
Agreed. And snaking the hips is a classic symptom of pulling across the centre line. If you rotate correctly, then having your hand approximately in line with your shoulder really isn't that wide when you see it in action.
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Poet.
Joined: 06 Aug 2013
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:37 am Post subject: |
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HOW THE ACTUAL F*** are people quicker with a pull buoy?
Do you even swim, bro'?
Or do you just get in and splash about?
If you're faster with a buoy - do some reading, research and get it drilled out of you over the winter.
There is no way you should be faster with a boo-ee.
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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Poet. wrote: | HOW THE ACTUAL F*** are people quicker with a pull buoy?
There is no way you should be faster with a boo-ee. |
Well, yes. People with 'heavy legs' are way slower without one, as it compensates & improves body position massively. But yes, if they swam correctly the difference should be way less.
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Jorgan wrote: | | Poet. wrote: | HOW THE ACTUAL F*** are people quicker with a pull buoy?
There is no way you should be faster with a boo-ee. |
Well, yes. People with 'heavy legs' are way slower without one, as it compensates & improves body position massively. But yes, if they swam correctly the difference should be way less. |
i would guess it's typical of most trufletes....
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
Posts: 2063
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:22 am Post subject: |
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| Jorgan wrote: | | Poet. wrote: | HOW THE ACTUAL F*** are people quicker with a pull buoy?
There is no way you should be faster with a boo-ee. |
Well, yes. People with 'heavy legs' are way slower without one, as it compensates & improves body position massively. But yes, if they swam correctly the difference should be way less. |
Yep. I used to be quite a bit quicker. Much less so now. I probably swim similar over longer intervals. I can't swim as fast over punchy shorter ones.
That said, I'm still way faster in buoyancy shorts, where I get the equivalent lift of a pb but whilst still being able to fully use my legs for balance and kick. Which shows I'm still definitely not flat in the water in just jammers. I don't use them often ... mainly pre-OW races if I've not been able to get out in the wetsuit much as the shorts simulate the position effect of my 3:5 wetsuit.
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Last edited by stenard on Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jorgan
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
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Location: alles was ich bin, alles was ich war
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 9:27 am Post subject: |
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Step away from the buoyancy shorts - highly addictive!
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snowie
Joined: 06 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Pull bouts can also be used for kick sets.
IMHO every pool session should inc at least 100m kick set or more
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Poet.
Joined: 06 Aug 2013
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 11:26 am Post subject: |
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[quote="snowie"]IMHO every pool session should inc at least 100m kick set or more[/quote]
That'd be hilariously enforced at a pool sprint...
"Right, kids, you've got to do 100m kick, then 300m yourstyle"
LOLZ!
RE: Buoyancy shorts - they be different. You can kick in them. And yes, they are pretty damn good.
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