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Short Course Meters to Yards Comparison.

 
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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
Posts: 461
Location: Worcester, UK

PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject: Short Course Meters to Yards Comparison. Reply with quote

Recently did a CSS test in a 25m pool which came out at 6:26 for 400m & 3:07 for 200m so 1:40 CSS pace.

I swim in a 25 yard pool on Wednesdays & 25 meter pool on Saturdays so the first Wednesday after the test I tried to do a set of 100s at CSS pace. Given the difference in distance is 10% (as near as dammit) I knocked it down to 1:30 but couldn't maintain this after the first few reps. (So went up to 1:35)

The following Saturday I tried again at the 25m pool and found 1:40 about right, fairly hard but sustainable which is my understanding of how CSS should feel (an approximation of 1500m pace)

All of the information I can find online just gives a 10% reduction from meters to yards (presumably based on the distance) but I'm left wondering if it is more complicated than that. I don't do tumble turns so wonder if the greater proportion of time I spend turning compared to the overall distance is throwing the calculation out.

Has anyone else had the same issue as I suspect my yard & meter pace isn't much different in reality?
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about other features of the imperial pool? I swam in one end of last year, and I was horrendously slow. But it was a really old pool, with high sides and ends. That makes a massive difference in terms of the speed you can maintain.
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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a good point, I hadn't thought about other factors. It is old (as you'd expect being yards) so does have high sides and drops off quite steeply at the deep end. The 25m pool was brand new a couple of years ago and is very shallow at the shallow end and doesn't get all that deep to the point where I can almost touch the bottom at the deep end when doing vertical kicking drills.
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hammerer




Joined: 19 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

10% does sound about right. 100m SCM US record is about 45.6, SCY 100yds is 39.9 What are your goals for the session when using CSS pace though?
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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I looked up the world records and there are also a couple of calculators on-line but I figure they are all based on tumble turns (and good ones at that)

There may be something in what Stenard said about the pool itself but I don't swim in any other 25y pools so don't really have any comparison for that.

I still think open turns being a greater proportion of the total time mean that, for me personally, 10% may not be appropriate. If I imagine swimming alongside a tumble turning swimmer also doing 1:40 for 100m. I might lose a body length each turn but make it up over the course of a length. In a 25y pool I still lose a body length each turn but have less distance to make it up so would finish behind him. He swims 1:30 I'm a few seconds more than that.

It's more curiosity than anything really as I'm not that competitive which kind of answers the second part of your question which is no specific goal for individual sessions. Sometimes I do longer slower swims, sometimes shorter faster and sometimes a mixture. It's about getting in an hours exercise, burning some calories and trying to be consistent with my training generally.
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stenard




Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess it depends how effective your open turns are. When I'm at club sessions, I'll frequently be swimming alongside other people who are roughly the same pace as me. This week we were doing some flat out 100s, and me and another guy were roughly hitting the same pace, both along the lane and off the wall. We were both going off the same mark on the pace clock.

He was tumble turning. I can't.

He was into the start of the next length quite a bit before me, but when swimming fast I really push off hard. I made back all that distance by the time we were back into strokes. I imagine a really good tumble turner can gain the benefit of the initial part, and still get a super strong push off which seems to be compromised for some when tumble turning due to the orientation distraction, but for me it showed compared to a similar swimmer, I'm not really gaining or losing.
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JaRok2300




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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Completely agree, there are tumble turns and then there are tumble turns.

I experience a similar sequence as you describe with a couple of people I swim with. On the other hand a guy who used to swim competitively at national level would be along side you going into the wall and seemed to instantaneously be going at full speed the opposite way.

The world records Hammerer quotes (and calculators I guess) would be delivered with perfect turns as opposed to an average/poor tumble turner who maybe doesn't gain that much in comparison.
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Buzz_




Joined: 19 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But the simple 10% is comparing yourself with yourself, because 100yds is 10% less than 100m. To say that doing open turns costs you proportionally more in 100yds suggests that the turns (and subsequent push off) are slower than your normal swim, I always believed that the more turns the better as the push off is actually the fastest point of the length.

As you say, it's more a curiosity than an issue, and is probably more down to the pool design than the distance (or time of day / time of week when you swim - makes a difference to me). The obvious solution is to do a CSS test in each pool Smile
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JaRok2300




Joined: 01 May 2014
Posts: 461
Location: Worcester, UK

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Buzz_"]But the simple 10% is comparing yourself with yourself, because 100yds is 10% less than 100m. To say that doing open turns costs you proportionally more in 100yds suggests that the turns (and subsequent push off) are slower than your normal swim, I always believed that the more turns the better as the push off is actually the fastest point of the length.

I agree the push off is the fastest part but you can't separate that from the rest of the turn process. All other things being equal the turn is a greater part of the event (in terms of time) so the overall time is disproportionately affected.

I'll try another example to see if I can get across what I mean:

Usain Bolt runs 100m in 10s, it takes him 2s to turn round and he runs 100m back again in 10s; 200m in 22s. he then runs 50m in 5s, 2s to turn round and 50m back again in 5s; 100m in 12s (I.e. more than 50%). I know that's an unrealistic example as doesn't take into account acceleration etc. but hopefully it gets my point across that even if you do everything at the same speed the proportions affect the overall time more than just the pure distance would suggest.

I think a perfectly executed tumble turn mitigates that entirely and may even reverse it as, you say, the push off is the fastest point but a slow tumble turn or open turn does not.

Now, just need to come up with a theory for why I bike & run so slowly too Wink
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