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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone
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 Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Buzz_ wrote: | So what is the theory for why these shoes are so good?
If you can feel the ground through them then that's like minimalist shoes, yet if they are supposed to fatigue you less then surely cushioning is needed?
If they are inflexible then maybe less energy is lost at ground contact, but also not very good for cushioning each stride.
Does the 4% refer to the heel drop (there are plenty of racing flats in that category) or do you get a 4% improvement from wearing them? |
they won't fall in the category of minimalist and i doubt anyone can feel much through the cushioning - certainly not at the heel - the differential looks quite large though, so possibly some response through the forefoot.
I assume it is the carbon plate that is providing what the runner's body is unable too, namely efficient energy storage and return....supposedly 4% more efficient than without the carbon...
what the shop was unable to say was how the carbon worked...
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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Lots of detailed reviews on line by impartial shoe sites.
The main cutting edge technology was a brand new type of foam, and also a carbon plate that runs the entire length of the shoe. I imagine that's why ejc thinks it feels inflexible, but running in them (pretty fast) is like no other shoe I've ever run in.
The 4% refers to the improvement in running economy, not necessarily increase in speed. The foam/carbon plate combo recover more of the energy lost in ground contact into forward propulsion on the next stride. The best I can describe it is what I imagine those kangaroo stilt things to feel like (not that I've ever used them).
The forward propulsion is noticeable. I have a high sensitivity footpod and everything else being equal (RPE, HR, etc) my stride length increases without any additional effort. That's where the free speed comes from for me as far as I can tell.
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| explorerJC wrote: |
what the shop was unable to say was how the carbon worked... |
Are you really that surprised? That's like expecting the Mercedes F1 guy selling some caps at Silverstone to be able to explain to exactly how the MGU-H works and why it's a competitive advantage over Ferrari's version.
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| stenard wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: |
what the shop was unable to say was how the carbon worked... |
Are you really that surprised? That's like expecting the Mercedes F1 guy selling some caps at Silverstone to be able to explain to exactly how the MGU-H works and why it's a competitive advantage over Ferrari's version. |
er..not quite...it would be like the guy selling the caps to not know how the material protects from uv rays...and only then if they were being advertised as such...
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone
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| Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| stenard wrote: | Lots of detailed reviews on line by impartial shoe sites.
The main cutting edge technology was a brand new type of foam, and also a carbon plate that runs the entire length of the shoe. I imagine that's why ejc thinks it feels inflexible, but running in them (pretty fast) is like no other shoe I've ever run in.
The 4% refers to the improvement in running economy, not necessarily increase in speed. The foam/carbon plate combo recover more of the energy lost in ground contact into forward propulsion on the next stride. The best I can describe it is what I imagine those kangaroo stilt things to feel like (not that I've ever used them).
The forward propulsion is noticeable. I have a high sensitivity footpod and everything else being equal (RPE, HR, etc) my stride length increases without any additional effort. That's where the free speed comes from for me as far as I can tell. |
ejc thinks that it is inflexible because when ejc tried to flex the shoe, it hardly moved...
What i was trying to determine was whether it work whether you were heel striking or forefoot striking. Judging by the stacked heel, it is designed to work on heel striking but it may work the other way too.
Increasing energy return is simply doing what the running musculature is designed to do...and/or taking it further than current training levels have achieved.
Extending stride length can be a good thing only if certain other aspects of form are adjusted to accommodate, otherwise it is an accident (injury) waiting to happen for many...
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Poet
Joined: 13 Apr 2007
Posts: 10148
Location: Your Mum
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:30 am Post subject: |
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Greek Toe = Morton’s Toe.
Second toe is longer than the big one.
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| explorerJC wrote: | | stenard wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: |
what the shop was unable to say was how the carbon worked... |
Are you really that surprised? That's like expecting the Mercedes F1 guy selling some caps at Silverstone to be able to explain to exactly how the MGU-H works and why it's a competitive advantage over Ferrari's version. |
er..not quite...it would be like the guy selling the caps to not know how the material protects from uv rays...and only then if they were being advertised as such... |
I thought you might say something like that. I disagree that a salesman in the Nike Store should be expected to understand the technical details of a shoe like this, especially when some of the tech is proprietary and probably quite technical. You may expect a basic shoe salesman to know thosr type of details if they're selling you a shoe, and I'd agree if I were going and buying a pair of standard shoes in a normal shoe shop, but Nike is pretty much a fashion accessory for the majority of the shoes they sell. And for shoes like this, people spending >£200 on a pair of running trainers will probably have done their own research and know more than a salesman who is spending most of his time selling non-sports specific gear.
Maybe I'm too forgiving. But ultimately Nike don't need their basic sales staff to sell us the shoe. It's selling itself to the point of being generally hard to come by for a number of years now.
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mattsurf
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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Location: Zug, Switzerland
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:45 am Post subject: |
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I think that it is more than placebo
Ran HM distance today in 1h27m, @ 4m10/km, 3 weeks ago ran exactly same route in 04:30/KM, HR today was 157 Vs 155 the previous time so pretty similar, weather was also similar
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explorerJC
Joined: 20 Oct 2005
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Location: Farthingstone
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| stenard wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: | | stenard wrote: | | explorerJC wrote: |
what the shop was unable to say was how the carbon worked... |
Are you really that surprised? That's like expecting the Mercedes F1 guy selling some caps at Silverstone to be able to explain to exactly how the MGU-H works and why it's a competitive advantage over Ferrari's version. |
er..not quite...it would be like the guy selling the caps to not know how the material protects from uv rays...and only then if they were being advertised as such... |
I thought you might say something like that. I disagree that a salesman in the Nike Store should be expected to understand the technical details of a shoe like this, especially when some of the tech is proprietary and probably quite technical. You may expect a basic shoe salesman to know thosr type of details if they're selling you a shoe, and I'd agree if I were going and buying a pair of standard shoes in a normal shoe shop, but Nike is pretty much a fashion accessory for the majority of the shoes they sell. And for shoes like this, people spending >£200 on a pair of running trainers will probably have done their own research and know more than a salesman who is spending most of his time selling non-sports specific gear.
Maybe I'm too forgiving. But ultimately Nike don't need their basic sales staff to sell us the shoe. It's selling itself to the point of being generally hard to come by for a number of years now. |
i said something like that because the analogy was naff...
part of the sales spiel was presented to the sales person underneath the sample shoes...but even that wast sufficient to prompt any guidance from our shop assistant...
but i get the point in why on earth would you go to a fashion retailer to get useful guidance on running shoes...
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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The element of comparing a sports technical question being posed to a person generally selling a clothing accessory was fairly deliberate. Albeit I could have probably found a better overall analogy.
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| mattsurf wrote: | I think that it is more than placebo
Ran HM distance today in 1h27m, @ 4m10/km, 3 weeks ago ran exactly same route in 04:30/KM, HR today was 157 Vs 155 the previous time so pretty similar, weather was also similar |
That experience pretty much aligns to the early runs I did in them. Mine were a bit slower, and shorter, but I was doing 10-12k runs 25s/km than I would normally do for the same HR (c4.25/km versus a normal 4.50/km or so). These were all "steady endurance" type runs
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mattsurf
Joined: 28 Sep 2016
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Location: Zug, Switzerland
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| stenard wrote: | | mattsurf wrote: | I think that it is more than placebo
Ran HM distance today in 1h27m, @ 4m10/km, 3 weeks ago ran exactly same route in 04:30/KM, HR today was 157 Vs 155 the previous time so pretty similar, weather was also similar |
That experience pretty much aligns to the early runs I did in them. Mine were a bit slower, and shorter, but I was doing 10-12k runs 25s/km than I would normally do for the same HR (c4.25/km versus a normal 4.50/km or so). These were all "steady endurance" type runs |
I have not really pushed my pace at all over the winter, and wanted to see what I could do, so this run was done after a rest day, but no taper or anything like that, I think that me ATL was around -15 at the time. I was running reasonably hard, roughly equal in Zone 3 and 4, but not 100% effort.
I felt that biggest benefit was that I could maintain my pace throughout, I did a 1m20s negative split, and my final 5k was under 20mins.
After the run, my legs felt very good, the new material really does reduce pounding on the legs - so I was able to function normally for the rest of the day
On the downside, the shoes provide very little support for my ankles, as a result, I wouldn`t use these as my everyday running shoe, but I do think that a few runs are necessary to get used to get the correct pace dialed in
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leahnp
Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 1947
Location: Scottish Borders
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Any suggestions regarding where to buy these?
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Buzz_
Joined: 19 May 2007
Posts: 453
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| stenard wrote: | | The element of comparing a sports technical question being posed to a person generally selling a clothing accessory was fairly deliberate. Albeit I could have probably found a better overall analogy. |
I think Nike would like to argue they are a sports technology manufacturer and not a fashion retailer, and therefore ensuring sales staff understand the technology they are promoting should be a key differentiator - especially when it is a flagship product.
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stenard
Joined: 04 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Buzz_ wrote: | | stenard wrote: | | The element of comparing a sports technical question being posed to a person generally selling a clothing accessory was fairly deliberate. Albeit I could have probably found a better overall analogy. |
I think Nike would like to argue they are a sports technology manufacturer and not a fashion retailer, and therefore ensuring sales staff understand the technology they are promoting should be a key differentiator - especially when it is a flagship product. |
I think they certainly would argue that at an R&D level centrally. Especially based on their background and history. But they were also one of the flagship companies to take trainers out of the running market and into general everyday wear. I've never looked into it, but that must be the bulk of their revenue now.
The day I was in the Nike Store getting my vaporfly's (by pure luck), every other single person around me was trying on the latest collectible. They weren't there for sports performance. And hence the "value added" by training up every member of staff on the technical merits of the vaporfly is hardly good ROI. Especially when up until now, most stores have very infrequently had any in stock for any prolonged period of time.
| leahnp wrote: | | Any suggestions regarding where to buy these? |
On the website. They have all sizes in stock in what appears to be a brand new colour scheme (the bright orange, but with a black swoosh rather than white)
| mattsurf wrote: |
On the downside, the shoes provide very little support for my ankles, as a result, I wouldn`t use these as my everyday running shoe, but I do think that a few runs are necessary to get used to get the correct pace dialed in |
I agree with that. There's some instability there because of the large amount of "give" in the new foam. It did make me pause for thought in terms of using them for a marathon, which is why I said to myself if I hadnt used them in a half before London, I wouldnt risk them. But they were fine in The Big Half.
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